This Is What's Wrong With McLaren (IMHO)

"Oneofsevenbillion" (oneofsevenbillion) 02/25/2015 at 17:25 • Filed to: Jalopnik, mclaren, ferrari, lamborghini, porsche, 675lt, problem, supercar

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So McLaren have just released the 675LT, and I've got to say, I'm not impressed. So what's wrong? Have I gone mad? Apparently 33% of it is completely new, but it still manages looks like another 650S/625C to me. I regret to inform you McLaren, but this is an intervention.

McLaren just don't seem to get it anymore. We don't want more power, we don't want better aero, we don't want new camshafts/connecting rods/fuel pumps. We want Gordon Murray's take on a performance car. We want a performance car that's unparalled in terms of engagement and performance, without compromising form for function. We want something that is able to turn back the clock and make us feel as if we are children again. We want what McLaren once promised - the perfect supercar.

The "perfect" supercar doesn't take you from point A to point B as fast as possible. The "perfect" supercar takes you back to your first ever Christmas morning as you race towards your presents under the tree, and that's why something like the Speciale will keep winning time and time again.

Sure, the 675LT may be faster than the Speciale around any circuit in the world, but the Speciale manages to engage the driver in a way that no modern McLaren has been able to. More importantly, the Speciale manages to preserve the inherent Ferrariness that is distinctly recognisable in any modern Ferrari. McLaren, unfortunately, no longer make McLarens. The matter may be there (i.e. extremely capable and extremely advanced performance car produced by McLaren), but the form is not (i.e. McLarenness, as epitomised by the F1).

So what's happening with McLaren? Incrementally more power and less weight per iteration as a result of their obsession with continuous improvement (if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just look at Ferrari: a new model, a fast version, repeat - it works!), a new set of bumpers per iteration, and a woeful increase in price per iteration. Hang on, this sounds familiar. Now where have we seen this before? Let me tell you, this is the exact same game that Nissan is playing with the GTR.

You could argue that Porsche and Lamborghini are doing exactly the same thing. Thing is, they aren't. Porsche releases, not a new model, but a new generation (revolution as opposed to evolution), with the GT3 RS/GT2/GT2 RS models representing the pinnacle of evolution within each revolution (the pinnacle of each generation of 911). Furthermore, Porsche still manage to maintain the purity of every 911 variant without compromising on the money making. Sure their range is diluted by the Panamera, Macan, and Cayenne, but don't they still manage to feel like Porsches despite not being a 911?

Lamborghini, on the other hand, are in danger of going down the GTR route. With the endless number of Gallardo spin-offs, they are veering dangerously close to the GTR formula. However, Lamborghini is spared by virtue of being Lamborghini, such that they ensure that every variant of the Gallardo/Huracan still screams Lambo's age old "batshit crazy" mantra. By having more wings than your average spaceship, and looking wilder than one too, Lamborghinis still manage to be proper supercars. Let's just hope they keep doing their thing.

Anyway, I digress, back to McLaren and the problem at hand. Let's not beat around the bush here, McLaren has lost its way. They don't stand for the same thing as they used to anymore. The ethos of McLaren instilled by Gordon Murray and distilled in the wonderful F1 roadcar has been lost in its entireity. I mean just look at the 625C. It is an inferior product, albeit a shiny & gaudy one, to be bought by the Chinese (a la iPhone 5C). Clear evidence of "market research", "customer feedback", and "pre-boardroom meeting meetings". Whatever happened to "we're going to build a car, its gonna have 3 seats, it's gonna weigh as much as a hedgehog, it's gonna have gold lining the engine bay, and it's gonna be the best f*cking car on the road"?

Gordon Murray made sure function came before form without sacrificing purity. Here was a man who knew how to make a car that brought you back to your very first Christmas morning. Here was a man who made a car that did just that.

Unfortunately Murray's legacy isn't at all honoured in any iterations of McLaren's latest road cars, whereas Enzo Ferrari still lives on in every single vehicle on the current Ferrari lineup. If Ferrari can do it, why can't McLaren? If a Macan still manages to retain a flavour of porscheness (so to speak), why can't a 625C contain even a smidgen of (Murray's) McLareness?

I'm not saying that McLaren make bad cars. I'm not even saying that Ferrari make better cars. I'm saying that McLaren now make fancy, pricy GTRs instead of the platonic ideal of a supercar. I'm saying that McLaren have failed to advance Gordon Murray's legacy by failing to preserve the McLarenness of the F1. My dear reader, I am simply saying that Ferrari does Ferrari better than McLaren does McLaren.

Buying a new McLaren if you've already got one (or upgrading your old McLaren) is like buying the newest Philips Sonicare toothbrush ( "it's Sooo much better, I swear! See, it records all my brush data and sends them to a database in my computer via Bluetooth, and only cost me my left kidney!" ). People who buy a McLaren (bar, perhaps, the P1) do not do so because they desire the platonic ideal of a supercar. People who buy a McLaren do so only because they wouldn't be seen dead driving a Nissan; and that, dear reader, is tragic.

EDIT: I've made substantial changes to my article. Let me remind you that I am merely presenting my subjective opinion on the matter. I am also not a Ferrari fanboy. Read my changes and my responses carefully, you may be convinced that I'm not talking utter rubbish after all.

472CID > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:09

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I think it's because McLaren used to be such a special, even legendary car maker with the F1. Now they keep churning out cars that are relatively forgettable compared to the competition. Oh sure, they might be faster, but they're less interesting.

Bobbyzoom > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:09

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Uhm, no.

Mike_Smith > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:10

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No, what's wrong with McLaren is they won't give Top Gear a P1 to get creamed by the 918 Spyder. [ducks...]

djmt1 > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:14

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Building F1s and P1s doesn't pay the bills. Selling 5000 cars in three years does. Keep in mind Mclaren doesn't have the luxury of Pagani or Koenigsegg of having billionaire backers or the Corporate overlords of Porsche, Lambo or Ferrari. Making cars is hard and expensive and considering how fast they are expanding they are clearly doing something right. Besides I would rather they pump out incremental upgrades of the 12C then build SUVs.

Yossarian > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:15

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So you don't want McLaren to stick around and not exist for 15 years again like last time? The P1 is their F1 successor and it's done a pretty good job based on what everyone's said. The 675LT is just the track version of the 650S like the Speciale to the 458. we haven't even seen the baby McLaren yet but it has a carbon tub and I don't doubt it'll be a good car.

And the F1 was never an emotional car. It's cold and calculated. Designed to be the best car that they could build

I'm not even a McLaren fanboy. I'd rather have a Ferrari, but this is what they need to do to stick around.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:15

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Mclaren builds to be the most technically advanced car on the road, which I'd argue they've done. The P1 helps elevate the image and the 12C got a fair overhaul into the 650s. For a company that small making a new generation is hard because designing a new carbon tub aint easy.

They are a little more clinical than the other makers though, but I can't say that bothers me. I'd take a 650s over a 458.

Xkjacob > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:24

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You are looking at it as an auto enthusiast. They are technology enthusiasts. Also, if they keep the body style similar they may be able to shift perception that the aerodynamic characteristic car shell they use is their brand model. This will force pressure on competitors to distinguish themselves outside of an optimal design.

Textured Soy Protein > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:29

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All the times you keep saying McClaren then alternating back to the proper McLaren spelling are making me want to pull my hair out. And I'm bald.

The R35 GT-R has been around since the 2009 model year. The MP4-12C and its descendants since 2012.

With the MP4-12C, 650S, 625S, and 675LT, that's 4 variants in 4 model years. You talk about the Porsche 911 coming in new generations, ok, great. Porsche sold the 997 from 2005-2012 and had over 20 different versions.

The MP4-12C and its descendants have been on the market for 3 model years less than the Porsche 997, and there are like 1/4 of the variations.

Oneofsevenbillion > Textured Soy Protein 02/25/2015 at 13:32

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I apologise for the autocorrect function on my phone.

GhostZ > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:37

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It's because the development cost for a new car is exponentially rising due to the complexity of carbon fiber design. Changing all the molds costs way more than adopting a

Plus, there's the marginal benefits and freedom in design when it comes to aerodynamic design. You can only improve the shape of a car so much without drastically increasing its cost.

Oneofsevenbillion > Textured Soy Protein 02/25/2015 at 13:38

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I also apologise for your hair loss. You should probably grow a goatee.

I think you must have misunderstood my article. I'm simply saying that a) McLaren (got it this time) has a lack of revolutionary vision, and is far too focused on evolution, and b) McLaren (again, go me!) has not stuck true to the mantra of building truly excellent, and uncompromising road cars as observed with their first road car.

I suggest you reread the article, as your history lesson is of little relevance.

Oneofsevenbillion > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 02/25/2015 at 13:41

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Was the F1 the most technically advanced car of its time? Perhaps. But what Murray set out to do, was to build a race car for the road without compromise (he set out for excellence, not perfection). Yes, McLaren have built the most advanced performance cars available, but in doing so, have lost sight of Murray's vision.

Take a woman for example. Sure, she's got the best body and best technique (whatever you would want that to mean), but if she can't hold an interesting conversation, you wouldn't want to marry her would you?

Sejji > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:43

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Man, maybe Mac needs to just find all the F1 tooling and remake the thing. It seems like they made something that could never be replicated again, and people can't let it go.

With that said, they're trying to push their niche which is better, faster, stronger. I do think they might be confusing people by rolling out too many updates in too short a time. They might be better off holding those update to do a full model refresh instead of updating 33% of the car a year. That would also keep them from burning through cash so fast.

Oneofsevenbillion > Yossarian 02/25/2015 at 13:49

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Look at what Gordon Murray has to say about the P1. He respects it, but sees it as no suitable successor to the car he was responsible for.

Sure the LT is the "track ready" version, but I would suspect that it drives much like a more focused 650S (much like the V Spec was to the standard GTR). The Speciale has that "wow" factor, of feeling novel to the standard 458 without removing the familiarity (i.e. As if it were a whole new car).

I haven't driven the F1, but Rowan Atkinson used his so very regularly. If you ask EVO, they don't seem to think that the F1 is at all clinical. On the contrary, they commend it for being engaging, thrilling, and a truly unique experience.

I'm not saying don't build cars that are profit orientated. I'm saying make more of an effort to stick true to Murray's vision and build truly exceptional cars. Porsche has managed to do it with the Boxter, the Cayman, the Macan, the Cayenne, and the Panamera. Why can't McLaren?

Oneofsevenbillion > GhostZ 02/25/2015 at 13:54

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Ferrari has seemed to manage. The CS did not differ so much from the standard 360, where it did was in character. Likewise with the 430 and the Scuderia. Same goes for the 458 and the Speciale.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 13:55

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Well that vision made no money, hence the massive break between the F1 and their recent revival. The F1 was an all time great but it was pretty unsustainable.

Your example is a matter of personal opinion in the end. The P1 is very desirable to me, as is the 650S. To others; not so much and that's fine. In the same way that you may have nothing in common with a woman and others do.

Oneofsevenbillion > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 02/25/2015 at 13:59

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Exactly. I made no claims of objectivity. This is simply what I think.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:01

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That's fair, I wasn't attacking your point or anything, just offering a counterpoint.

Oneofsevenbillion > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 02/25/2015 at 14:07

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and I was offering mine! I'm not attack your points either, merely giving my two cents.

Oneofsevenbillion > djmt1 02/25/2015 at 14:11

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my point is that the 12C has as much soul as my electric toothbrush. Ferrari manages to make money AND keep up with technology without building Teutonic androids

Oneofsevenbillion > djmt1 02/25/2015 at 14:12

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or building SUVs

TheHondaBro > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:32

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Did you re-post this?

djmt1 > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:35

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Having tracked a 12C, I disagree with the soul argument as for the business they aren't comparable.

As I said they have a corporate overlord that being Fiat plus they have been around a lot longer. This has various advantages including infrastructure, branding, delivery systems and corporate synergy.

McLaren only started building volume cars 4 years ago. Give them some time to get settled and stop comparing their heritage to companies building cars for half a century.

Nobi > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:36

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

But seriously, there's nothing wrong with them. They're merely updating what they've got to try and stay ahead of everyone else. They've got fewer platforms and money than the Ferraris, Porsches, Mercedes, Audis, and Lamborghinis out there do, but what they do with what they have works, and works well.

P.S. I like my iPhone 5c

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:36

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I'm sorry to say but McLaren just don't get it. We don't want more power, we don't want better aero, we don't want new camshafts/connecting rods/fuel pumps. We want something that is able to turn back the clock and make us feel as if we are children again

Anyway, I digress, back to McLaren and the problem at hand. Let's not beat around the bush here, McLaren has lost its way. They don't stand for the same thing as they used to anymore.

The fact of the matter is that these two statements simply don't match up... This might all make sense if you were ranting about Lamborghinis becoming too 'Audi-like', but it just doesn't fit here; form over function has never been the McLaren way, and that means working on things like better aero and engine components. You want a bedroom wall poster? Buy a Lamborghini. You want to beat Ferraris? I'm your huckleberry.

...and that's why something like the Speciale will keep winning time and time again

...except on track? The Speciale and 650S were quite closely matched, as I understand (though Ferrari didn't exude much confidence in its product ), so something tells me it doesn't have a prayer against the 675LT.

Textured Soy Protein > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:41

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Unlike John Travolta, I have accepted my hair loss.

You're the one who made the comparison to the 911 coming out with new generations instead of McLaren coming up with new versions.

If your point is "McLaren is just making new versions of the same thing which makes them like a Sonicare toothbrush adding more sonic-ness and selling it as a whole new toothbrush," then maybe you should have left out the bit about Porsche.

Because adding on to the comparison by saying "Porsche makes a whole new 911 so they are not making Sonicare toothbrushes," doesn't make any sense, because Porsche makes a ridiculous number of 911 variants, and each 911 generation tends to last longer than most other manufacturers' model cycles.

That's what I was talking about.

As for "revolutionary vision" (which to me sounds like a vague concept with no real meaning), there's always the P1.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 02/25/2015 at 14:42

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The massive break was just for them making a bespoke, McLaren only car. Before the F1, and after, they kept the doors open by being an engineering firm. Also the Mercedes-McLaren SLR was a thing, but that was more or less "Mercedes supercar by McLaren" than actual McLaren. If you know where to look in the automotive world you can see some surprising work that they've done to make ordinary cars better.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Yossarian 02/25/2015 at 14:43

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McLaren stuck around for those 15 years just fine, they just improved other cars instead of building their own.

PS9 > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:44

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I mean just look at the 625C. It is an inferior product, albeit a shiny & gaudy one, to be bought by the Chinese (a la iPhone 5C). Clear evidence of "market research", "customer feedback", and "pre-boardroom meeting meetings". Whatever happened to "we're going to build a car, its gonna have 3 seats, it's gonna weigh as much as a hedgehog, it's gonna have gold lining the engine bay, and it's gonna be the best f*cking car on the road"?

No. Sorry, but this article is impossible to take seriously if this is one of your main points. A $200-300k 458 competitor is obviously not going to succeed the F1. It's ridiculous to suggest that anyone could at that bracket.

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 14:46

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Refer to the F1 and its development. I never mentioned form. I'm not asking McLaren to do Lamborghini. I'm asking McLaren to go back to doing McLaren.

If you read my paragraph closely, I'm saying that the 458 Speciale manages to do the whole supercar cum time machine thing without compromising on performance. Yes, it might not be that much quicker than the 650S, but it's a whole lot better at doing the supercar cum time machine thing.

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 14:47

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the 12C has as much soul as my electric toothbrush

Spoken like someone who has never driven one. This has become one of the silliest cliches of recent automotive journalism; even Clarkson's done nothing but backpedal ever since that first review.

Oneofsevenbillion > PS9 02/25/2015 at 14:50

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You're missing the point. I'm saying that McLaren has compromised on Murray's mantra. Ferrari manages to imbue their "lesser" models with the characteristic Ferrariness epitomised by their halo cars (f40, f50, enzo, laferrari), so why can't mclaren do it?

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 14:52

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I've been in one for the best part of a few hours. It sounded like my toothbrush too.

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 15:35

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Read your own paragraph closely - "We want something that is able to turn back the clock and make us feel as if we are children again" - this is form, not development practices.

You can't expect all new McLarens to recreate the F1 any more than you can expect all new Ferraris to recreate the F40. Some people do, sure, but their whining is largely ignored, as it should be. That said, McLaren largely have done this in the P1, and now they're transitioning some of these high-value design elements to the rest of their product line. You see boring iteration, I see design evolution.

You like the Ferrari better - that's cool, it's a great car, but that doesn't prove anything. Maybe it didn't sacrifice its style for more performance, but if it's anything like the 430 Scud it sacrificed a lot of other things...like maybe the interior and any creature comforts. The McLaren keeps pace and still manages to be a road car (as opposed to a road-legal track car).

The fact that their cars can even be compared to Ferraris, let alone favorably, is already a huge win. Ferrari has more than half a century of experience making dream cars, not to mention effectively unlimited resources. McLaren have come along and nearly matched their best in a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the resources. Sounds more like Ferrari have lost their way than McLaren...

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 15:35

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You must have one doozy of a toothbrush then

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 15:44

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NO NO NO NO NO. If you were to drive a 12c and an F1 back to back, would you realise they came from the same automaker? I'm arguing that you wouldn't.

I'm arguing that if you were to drive an Enzo and a Speciale back to back, you would recognise the inherent Ferrariness in both models. You would be able to recognise both as Ferraris.

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 15:46

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It's a Philips Sonicare.

CAcoalminer > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 15:51

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the 12C has as much soul as my electric toothbrush

Have you ever driven a 12c?

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 15:53

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Is the success of McLaren as a manufacturer of high performance automobiles impressive? Yes.

Can the success of McLaren be attributed to making highly capable high performance vehicles? Yes.

Is the P1 orgasmic? Undoubtedly.

Can we recognise any MclarenF1ness in a P1? Debatable. Murray says no.

Has McLaren been faithful to Murray's vision of a supercar? No.

Are Murray's ideals represented in a modern McLaren? No.

Has McLaren lost its way? Yes.

Everything I've said is based on my subjective opinion. Hope that clarifies.

Oneofsevenbillion > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 15:54

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Driven: no. Shotgunned:yes.

CAcoalminer > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 16:08

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Then how can you make this comment?

Oneofsevenbillion > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 16:10

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It makes noises that are audible even to the passenger.

PS9 > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 16:12

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In what way have they not done that? How is the 675 not derivative from McLaren's experience in racing and building supercars? How? You've accused a couple of people in here of 'missing the point' but that's something everyone is going to be doing when you fill your article with poorly defined points.

I'm sorry to say but McLaren just don't get it. We don't want more power, we don't want better aero, we don't want new camshafts/connecting rods/fuel pumps. We want something that is able to turn back the clock and make us feel as if we are children again. The "perfect" supercar doesn't take you from point A to point B as fast as possible. The "perfect" supercar takes you back to your first ever Christmas morning as you race towards your presents under the tree, and that's why something like the Speciale will keep winning time and time again.

Read this again, and tell me what's meant. People don't want 'More power, new camshafts/conn rods/fuel pumps', but they still want the 458? Because it certainly has those things over the 430, and the 458s has those things over the 458, and again with the 488. McLaren's incrementalism is bad, but how is the progression from the 430 -> 488 with two special models in between not the definition of an incremental business model? 'We don't want a faster car' but every ferrari is a faster version of a previous ferrari. 'We don't want better aero', but one of the biggest features of the 458 was the flexible front spoiler that provided active aero, and one of the biggest improvements the 458s added was better areo. What is McLaren supposed to be doing here that they aren't? Did they miss the 5lbs of unicorn dust they're supposed to include with every car like Ferrari does or something?

'I don't feel special when I'm looking at a McLaren' is a subjective statement that is entirely devoid of meaning. It's useless to use how you feel about a car as a basis for what the company is doing wrong because you can't demonstrate that information to anyone who is not you, and a lack of objectivity can only result in a poorly defined argument. ' We want something that is able to turn back the clock and make us feel as if we are children again.'??? Dude, what even is that?

Oneofsevenbillion > PS9 02/25/2015 at 16:27

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I never claimed any objectivity. Everything I've said is based on my subjective opinion. I'm not writing as an oracle of absolute truth, but as myself with my own opinions as to why McLaren has lost its way.

- Ferrari manages to preserve Ferrariness in each incremental upgrade (common elements of the F40/F50/Enzo can still be recognised in the 430 and 458). Ferrari manages to improve (faster, better aero, better components, etc) and sell cars profitably while maintaining a unique and definitive continuity (insofar as they are still faithful to making cars with Ferrarriness).

-McLaren keeps up with its competition extraordinarily well, but it does so WITHOUT staying true to those original principles. I'm arguing that McLaren are now just building fancy GTRs instead of the platonic supercar (as Murray would have envisioned).

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 16:35

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The Enzo and the Speciale aren't that far apart, temporally speaking, so perhaps I could. In general, though, I think not. Could you link a 458 to an F40 without prior knowledge? Probably not. How could you? Few of the same people probably worked on it, the style is entirely different, one is NA V8 and the other TT V12, and they're 20 years apart. Sure they're both Ferraris, but Ferrari today is hardly the same as it was under the old man - why should it be?The two cars wouldn't feel the same because they really shouldn't feel the same. The same principle applies to McLaren: of course I wouldn't expect to have the same experience in a 20-year-old F1 as I would in a brand new 650S. Does that mean McLaren hasn't been faithful to Murray's ideals? Uhh maybe, but since when have Murray's ideals dictated McLaren's? He had a hand in 2 of their road cars, and I'd hardly say the SLR is representative of his ideals either.

This is largely why, and I hope you won't take this too personally, I find people who say McLarens have no soul but Ferraris ooze with it to be full of nothing but hot air and fanboy bias. It's your expectations that link the Speciale to the legendary Ferraris of old, not reality. It's the Ferrari mythos that would make even mediocre cars (if they made such a thing) into something that captures the imagination, just like cheap wine in an expensive bottle will pull rave reviews out of most wine critics.

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 16:37

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...

CAcoalminer > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 16:40

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So your assessment of a vehicle's "soul" is based completely on how it sounds?

Oneofsevenbillion > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 16:55

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Not at all.

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 17:03

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I'm not claiming that Ferrari's are better than McLarens. I'm saying that Ferraris are better at being Ferraris than McLarens are at being McLarens.

Sure the F40 and the 458 are two different animals, but you can feel Enzo in both of them. Both deliver on Enzo's promise in a way that only the F1 can on Murray's promise (and aren't McLaren still trying to promise the same thing?).

I'm not saying they should feel the same. I'm emphasising the need for continuity/familiarity.

The SLR was a Mercedes project. They had the final say, and they did overrule many of Murray's suggestions in favour of Mercedesness.

I'm not saying McLaren's have no soul. I'm saying that they have the WRONG soul. They just don't deliver on Murray's (and McLaren's) promise.

Oneofsevenbillion > McLarry 02/25/2015 at 17:07

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To be perfectly honest, I'm no huge Ferrari fan. I'm not too keen on the styling, nor do I particularly like their "You can play, but only by our rules" spoilt child-esque attitude. As I said, Ferrari are still doing Ferrari. Whether McLaren are still doing McLaren is sincerely debatable.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2015 at 17:18

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Didn't know they had involvement in the GNX, love that car.

McLarry > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 17:32

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Fair enough

Manuél Ferrari > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 17:37

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I agree that McLaren has a problem. But my taken is a lot different than yours.

I don't think that McLaren's formula is bad. Their cars are great and they are innovating insanely quickly for a company that effectively never made road cars before (the F1 was such limited production that it really doesn't give McLaren a true history as an automaker, they have always been a race car company).

I think their main issue is simply that they don't have enough brand cachet yet. Not everyone who buys a high end sports car cares about F1. There is no instant fix to this issue. They just need to stick to making road cars and not take a hiatus. Over time they'll build more fans of their road cars, which will allow them to sell more cars, which will give them more revenue to invest in R&D. Hopefully they'll get more creative with exterior design along the way.

TheHondaBro > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 17:41

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Y U KEEP RE-POSTING?????

Oneofsevenbillion > TheHondaBro 02/25/2015 at 17:44

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I thought it would be appropriate after a significant edit.

Matt Kirsch > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 17:49

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I agree with your general premise that McLaren's downfall is continual revision upon the same platform, but I agree with little else. I don't know how you can say that the Speciale is significantly more engaging around the track than any of the 12c variants. Have you driven both? Yes, the 458 is more "squirrelly" and a handful on the track but by a slim margin. Get rid of the turbos and add more noise and the 675LT becomes the Speciale. Having had the privilege of driving a number of supercars, I'd agree if the debate was awd vs rwd but it's not. To call current McLarens soulless is something I never thought I'd hear. I understand that you merely gave your opinion as I just gave mine.

dogisbadob > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 17:55

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I think McLaren should sell the 625C over here. I think it would be a smashing success. The way most people (fail to) drive them, the target customers will most likely enjoy the softer suspension. and not even notice the lower power.

But yeah, it is a shame about the lack of a middle seat. Also, building it that way would make it cheaper to manufacture (only 1-2 versions as opposed to 3-4)

Oneofsevenbillion > Matt Kirsch 02/25/2015 at 18:09

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You sir, make me most envious. What have you driven? How do they compare? I've only ever ridden with owners, and based this upon what they think and what I think.

CAcoalminer > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 18:18

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Then what are you basing the toothbrush comment on because when I asked initially you brought up the noises it makes.

GTRZILLAR32-Now saving for Godzilla and a condo > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 18:24

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I don't even know where to start with how wrong you are...

Oneofsevenbillion > GTRZILLAR32-Now saving for Godzilla and a condo 02/25/2015 at 18:26

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So don't. It's only an opinion.

Oneofsevenbillion > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 18:28

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I said that it also makes the same noise as my toothbrush. Merely another similarity between it and my toothbrush (in addition to being soulless).

CAcoalminer > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 18:39

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Then you have a great sounding toothbrush.

Also, what vehicle do you consider to have a soul?

Oneofsevenbillion > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 18:44

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It's about having the right soul, and faithfully representing the ethos of the automaker. Examples would be: McLaren F1, Carrera GT, Ferrari Enzo, Ford GT, Ferrari F40, Ferrari F50, any and every Pagani, BMW 1 Series M, Porsche 911, Veyron, SLS AMG, AMG GT, Rolls Royce Phantom, BMW 635CSi, (it goes on)

CAcoalminer > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 18:54

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I would argue that McLaren is still developing it's ethos. All the companies you mentioned have been around for many years (save for Pagani) and have had time to develop their brand identity. McLaren really just started becoming a mainstream car manufacturer within the last few years. Give them time, they'll figure out who they want to be. I mean they've made only 5 cars to this point (F1, 12c, 650s, 675LT, and P1).

B_dol > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 19:24

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Carry on, could not give any less f*cks. Love McLaren

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/25/2015 at 19:26

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Thank you for being sensible.

Oneofsevenbillion > B_dol 02/25/2015 at 19:31

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EXACTLY. It's just my opinion. But whatever happened to "Thanks, i enjoyed that, but I disagree with you because..."

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 19:45

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McLaren related -

Do you think future McLaren buyers should get a used 12C or a brand new Sport Series?

Prices could be similar depending on how many miles the used 12C has on it.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/25/2015 at 20:37

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Good question. I think it will all come down to what the SS offers. If it is quite similar to the 650S just with a less powerful motor, then I would say SS for sure.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 20:45

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My guess was that it would be slower than a 12C and not quite as nice inside. But we shall see.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/25/2015 at 20:54

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We shall indeed. That being said, a 12c would be a great car and their prices are quite low.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 21:12

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If I may intrude a bit, I see where he's coming from, but not directly explaining himself to the fullest. The things that make classic supercars, maybe even cars in general so unique, personalized, nostalgic, perhaps giving them their own sense of character even, is the fact that by all modern standards, they're primitive and basic as hell.

A time when the only things that mattered were the car, the driver, and his skills to drive the car; not infotainment systems, a excessive amount of computers and ECUs to control your every move and the engine with stability and traction controls and the whole platter, cars, supercars are seemingly becoming one and the same if I understand what he's saying correctly, and I'm partially inclined to agree. Times have changed from then, no doubt about that. Top Gear called the 12C an excellent supercar, but not really a "fun" car, and I guess they meant fun in the way of being able to control the car beyond simply steeping on the gas and turning the wheel.

Make no mistake, you know I've never driven anything that can even come close or rightfully be called a "supercar" by today's standards, but it is showing a definitive fact, and that is that some people still crave the "seat of your pants" fun that comes with older vehicles, without the nannies holding you back or anything or not much of the sorts. Whether that's a good thing or not is not up to me, I can only argue with my wallet, which isn't much, but that's all I can say for the most part.

Also, long time no see! How's it going? :)

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 21:14

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Me being me I would probably go used 12C

Cause that way I could get one with lots of options for less than a Sport Series with lots of options

And also I could get a car that has already depreciated a lot

I have no idea how much it costs to make the interior look like this but I like it:

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/25/2015 at 21:46

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From a value standpoint, that is definitely the best option for all of the reasons you listed.

As for options on that car that I know:

Carbon fiber interior upgrade- $4,000

McLaren branded floor mat set- $400

Premium Meridian surround sound package- $4,795

Electric and heated seats- $3,430

Full Leather Interior (I'm not sure how much it costs for the dual color interior)- $2,290

GTRZILLAR32-Now saving for Godzilla and a condo > Oneofsevenbillion 02/25/2015 at 21:56

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Well I guess my issue is with you equating Gordon Murray w/ being the only influence for McLaren road cars. He made one car, twenty years ago, when you could build and drive pretty much anything. It just isn't possible to be a competitive car maker in today's market by making cars visceral as an F1.

But before you say how each F1 is crossing the block to set new sales price records (in the F1 market) realize that what's driving the price is the cars collect-ability not the driving experience.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 22:00

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Great info, thanks. That's an E46 M3's worth of options right there, haha

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/25/2015 at 22:16

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If it has the carbon ceramics and all the carbon fiber pieces, you could probably buy at least two E46s.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/25/2015 at 22:47

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Haha I'm sure you're right

Do you like the new Cayman GT4?

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 03:12

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I love the GT4. A Cayman with a 911 motor and only a stick = perfection. I think the only thing that could make it better would be to stick the 991 GT3 RS's engine in it.

How about you?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Oneofsevenbillion 02/26/2015 at 07:16

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McLaren and all the other supercars bore me the further I get from being 12 years old.

Matt Kirsch > Oneofsevenbillion 02/26/2015 at 11:10

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I've driven a 360, gen 1 Gallardo, SLS, and 458 in that order. The 360 and Gallardo seemed very primitive to be honest. They were my first experiences driving supercars, and I couldn't stop smiling for a few days… but they weren't particularly quick and weren't exactly what I was expecting. The Gallardo did have a tubi exhaust though, and it sure made a nice noise. The SLS is heavy and you feel its weight but not as much as I was expecting. The 458 is unreal. It has the quickness of the SLS and the most incredible balance. The transmission is mind blowing, and it shifts faster than you can process. Whereas in the single clutch Gallardo, your head snaps forward during shifts (pretty violently actually), your head doesn't even move in the 458.
I'll take rwd over awd any day. I by no means have the skills to push any supercar to its limit so I see no reason for the "heavy" steering that is awd for improved grip. Rwd is so much lighter and enjoyable for me.

Oneofsevenbillion > Matt Kirsch 02/26/2015 at 12:16

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I've been in a Gallardo Spyder, 599GTO, 360, GTR, 12c Spyder, SLS, 964 Turbo, Carrera S and DB9.

anothermiatafanboy > Oneofsevenbillion 02/26/2015 at 13:13

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Get used to criticism, pal. This site is full of it. No need to get all butthurt about someone critiquing your article in a respectful manner.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 13:31

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I love it too!

I'm hoping they make a Cayman GT4 RS with an upgraded engine. Even if it doesn't get the GT3 RS's engine (which Porsche would be unlikely to do) they could give it the 991 GTS's engine that has the powerkit

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 17:52

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I think an RS version would be excellent and I agree that the possibility of it getting the GT3 RS's engine is probably .001%.

Another thing I'm very interested in is Aston Martin. I truly hope they do a final edition car of the Vanquish and push the V12 to its limits. The racing versions of the engine makes 720 hp and the most powerful street version so far is 600 hp in the Vantage GT3. Keeping this in mind, I would be happy with 630-50 hp and 480-500 ft. lbs. in a final spec version. I would also love the mid engine car that we've discussed before but this engine seems a heck of a lot more likely.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 18:24

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Looks like the Vantage GT3 has a 6L engine. And the Vanquish also has the 6L block.

They could probably get the street car's performance close to the GT3 race car as long as they can meet the emission standards. The engine is probably reliable enough for the street. I believe the GT3 is designed to run lots of track miles before the engine needs to be rebuilt. It's not like an F1 engine that only has to last a certain number of races.

The emission regs will be no easy task though. It's much easier to tune classic cars that don't have to pass smog regs.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 18:41

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Yep they both use the AM11 V12.

I understand that emission regulations are tough but Ferrari did make 661 hp out of their 6L V12 in the 599 GTO.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 18:44

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True!

Hopefully Aston can make it happen.

Ferrari's advantage is that they have massive profits to throw at R&D. They could have lost money on every 599 GTO without being hurt. I doubt they did, but just cool that they have enough profit to lose money on special editions that they really wanted to make.

Speaking of which do you think Ferrari will make a hot version of the F12?

My guess is yes.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 18:46

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Most definitely. Ferrari makes special editions of every model except maybe the California and FF.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 18:53

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Yes that's my thinking too. They probably won't make a hardcore version of the California or FF but will continue to make special editions of the Dino line and the front engine V12 cars.

The special edition of the F12 will be an insane car. It will have a TON of N/A power.

You know a special edition of the FF would be pretty cool. Instead of being track-focused it could just be a nicer and more exclusive version of the FF. More power and a more luxurious interior. I doubt it would happen but it would be kind of nice.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 19:01

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Indeed. The engine can make as much as 800hp as seen in LaFerrari.

That would be interesting.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 19:07

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Would you buy the hot version of the F12 if it was 250 lbs lighter and had a 795 HP engine?

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 19:19

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It would definitely be tempting but I'm really not a fan of the F12s styling.

What about you?

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 19:30

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I wasn't either. But the looks are growing on me now. It looks great in black. Very menacing.

It's price would be way more than I could afford so it wouldn't be a consideration. If I could comfortably afford it then it would be very tempting to buy one. Who knows how much longer the V12 Ferraris will be N/A and KERS-less. The F12's update might come with KERS. Which would add power, but also complexity and weight.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 19:58

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The next few years definitely will be interesting from a technological standpoint.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 20:09

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Did you see the FP post about Porsche going up against Tesla?

Makes sense. From what I've read Porsche has some of the most advanced hybrid drive systems out there. So they can build some nice luxury pure EVs or EVs with small range extending engines to compete with Tesla.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 20:12

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No, I haven't.

That definitely does make sense considering they have the 919 as a test bed and have also used it in the GT3 R Hybrid.

Manuél Ferrari > CAcoalminer 02/26/2015 at 20:26

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And the hybrid setup in the Panamera is supposed to be pretty good compared to other companies.

I could see them making a version of the Macan one day that is setup like the Chevy Volt - the ICE would only charge the battery and never drive the wheels.

Porsche is a luxury car company now and not just a sports car company. They'll make anything as long as it makes them money. Ferrari has to worry about ruining their image by making 4 door cars but Porsche is long past that and doing better than ever.

CAcoalminer > Manuél Ferrari 02/26/2015 at 22:18

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I would assume so based on how well all their other products are made.

I could see that as well.

Very true.